Ep 183 w/ Erin Hynes – Gouda Cheese Market, Den Bosch Canals & Dreamy Delft – Exploring the Netherlands with Pina Travels

But for the name, the difference between Holland and Netherlands, what are we saying, do know the reason, what we say with one or the other.

Holland is a term that refers to a specific region of the Netherlands that's part of what's called the Randstad, which is the most densely populated part of the Netherlands. It also refers to what's called the low-lying country. So Holland is like North Holland and South Holland. Those are two provinces. And because it's sort of like the economic center of the Netherlands, I think people just started referring to it as Holland.

colloquially, but like technically the country is called the Netherlands. Den Bosch we went to with the tourist brain because it is a very special city. It's one of the best preserved medieval city centers in the entire country. wow. So you can see old ramparts and you can see old city walls that are still visible. There's also a lot of fortifications left over there and like really beautiful walking routes that you can do like all around the fortifications. And it's especially famous for its network of

canals because it has special canals they run under the city so they go through the city but also under... That's pretty good yeah. The closest like point of recognition for people would probably be Rotterdam it's about like 45 minutes or an hour from Rotterdam and the reason I

they say it but

broken down.

go there every time I'm in the Netherlands is because it is one of the places that my Oma grew up in. Her childhood home is still there and so whenever I'm there I drive by and I go look at the house that my Oma once lived in.

Yeah. Welcome to the Winging It Travel Podcast, your weekly ticket to the world dropping every Monday and hosted by me, James Hammond, proudly part of the Voy Escape Network. This is a travel podcast that throws out the itinerary and dive straight into the raw, real and unpredictable essence of global exploration, chasing moments over milestones, those spontaneous encounters, immersive sounds and unforgettable stories. Whether I'm hiking up volcanoes in Guatemala,

or camping under the stars in British Columbia.

I've met incredible people, seen breath taking places and collected unforgettable stories. I now get to share them with you, alongside some of the most diverse and well travelled guests from around the world. Expect engaging conversations that bring fresh perspectives and inspiring travel tales. There are also raw, reflective solo episodes where I share personal insights, practical tips and honest stories from the road. This is podcast for travellers, streamers, backpackers and anyone who's ever thought, what if I just went for it and travelled? If you're looking for stories to tell, tips to share,

and experiences to inspire, then you're in the right place. There's so much travel content coming your way, it might just spark that trip you've been dreaming about for years. You can find Winging It, a more fantastic travel podcast from around the world at voyescape.com. The link is in the show notes. Let's go and explore the world. Hello, welcome to this week's episode. I'm rejoined by my friend of mine, Hines from the Curious Tours and Podcast. Aaron traveled to Netherlands a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago in Europe.

and which is a big part of her family history and heritage. And I want to know what Netherlands is like because I've only been to Nijmegen. So it's incredibly under traveled for me. Erin, welcome to the show. How are doing?

Good, thanks. Thanks for having me.

It's been a while. I can't remember the last time we spoke, but I feel like the world has had a lot going on since the last time we spoke.

Oh yeah. Are you optimistic? Oh gosh, we're really into things right from the get go. I'm trying to be optimistic, which is difficult for me.

Yes. think we've exchanged a few messages where things have been really bad saying this is just outrageous. Yeah. I don't even know where to start with that. It's not a politics podcast, but hopefully, I don't know, hopefully it gets better. Am I optimistic? Not sure.

Yeah.

I will say this, I do think it's really important in times like these, like I have to remind myself this all the time, to like continue to try to find joy instead of just like giving into the cynicism and travel is one way that I do that. Like going to the Netherlands was a great distraction, aside from all the people asking me about the US. Aside from that, it was a nice distraction from everything that is going on in the world. Let's take solace in travel if we can.

think we have to, yeah. Okay, let's delve into Netherlands. But first of all, I just remind people you're based in Toronto, right? So how's the summer kicking off for you?

Summer is certainly kicking off. It's getting quite hot here, but I love it. As every Torontonian will say, summer is the best time in the city. The city just like really comes alive. People are out at street festivals every weekend. You're going to the island. It's just like a really joyous time in the city. And I literally live in the city just for like the three months of summer, because it's just so much fun.

Yeah

Yeah, magic.

is and you have a free place to stay so you two really need to come my cat Crumpet is waiting to meet you in

I know. There's literally no excuse. ⁓

No, we are planning like a weekend getaway, long weekend getaway in the summer sometimes and we're different, probably not BC. So I think we're kind of weighing up Edmonton because we've not been to any, sorry, we've been to most cities in Canada, big cities if you like. And that's the one we haven't made it to. So we're of weighing that one up.

I have not been there, so if you do go, you gotta, you gotta film me in.

Okay, David who owns our network says there's that much going on, but hey, why not go and see it?

Well,

you know what? I was in Saskatoon a few weeks ago and everyone told me there's not a lot going on in Saskatoon and everyone was very wrong. I ended up really loving that city and I think that it's really unfair that people say this small city in Saskatchewan has nothing going on because there was tons going on. I loved it so much. So I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in Edmonton.

Yeah, so is-

That's the one city we've not been to as well, Saskatoon. So think it's those two that are kind of on our list. And I guess you want to chuck in Yellowknife if you want, you want to go up to up to the north.

Yeah.

I'm headed there tomorrow. I'm so excited. To Yellowknife, yeah. That is Yukon. wait, no, Whitehorse. I'm going to Whitehorse. I did the classic thing, I mixed them up.

To get a knife? Is that Northern Territories? Is Yukon?

Okay

Yeah. Okay. white horse.

Cool, we'll see. You have been whitewashed? Okay. What should I do?

Yes. Yeah. Loved it.

Well, we went in middle of winter, so it's a very different time. Because your days are going to last forever. Whereas ours last five hours.

Be a different vibe. Okay. Yeah.

It's

gonna be Midnight Sun, which I'm very excited for.

Have you got any plans, like anything set in stone?

We have loose plans. We're renting a camper van, so we'll be traveling around in that. So like the loose plan is Dawson City, of course, to like delve into the history of the Gold Rush. Cluani National Park, Carcross. We're to just like go to, we're doing the classic trip. It's our first time in Yukon. And so we're just going to hit all the most well-known places. And then hopefully we can go back a second time and do more north. Cause I would really like to go to,

stuff here.

the national parks like in the north of Yukon as well.

Yep. think the dream we go to right to the top is that Yok Tuk A Tuk, whatever it's called, can't pronounce it. I think you can still drive it in the summer. think July and August, the road is doable. That's on the list of things to do. Yeah. White horse, you probably will bump into some bears, right? So I'd be keen to see what your experience is going to be with them.

Mmm, yeah.

terrified.

Our Airbnb host said when we went in at Christmas a few years ago that in the summer you will guarantee see them just day to day because they're just living amongst bears, right? They just walk along the road. That's what he said. Yeah.

in the city?

my gosh. I got my bare bells.

Got your best right, yeah.

Yeah, we're renting bear spray. I didn't know you can do this because we're flying there, of course. So we can't bring bear spray on the flight. But I learned recently that you can rent bear spray, which is great because in the past, I've like just bought it when I've been like in BC and then like given it to someone before I leave. But like, it's not cheap. It's like sometimes upwards of $100 for a can of bear spray. And so when I learned you could rent it, it's only costing us 20 bucks to rent it for the whole trip. So...

course yet.

You pay more if you end up using it. But I was like, well, if I end up using it, I might not be alive, so I won't be on the hook for that.

Because we've got bear spray, but yeah, I've never used it. So yeah, that's an easy moneymaker, that, isn't it?

It sure is, yeah.

Capsulism at work there. Based on fear, but does it actually work, bear spray? Not sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of bear sightings up there. So yeah, good luck with that.

Thank you. I'll let you know how it goes if I survive the trip.

And are you camping as well, right? In campsites? Yeah.

that

will be in a camper van. You won't catch me in a tent in Bear

Yeah. Cause you got to put your food and stuff up the hoist up. Yeah. ⁓ interesting. Yeah. Good luck. I'm keen to see how that goes.

Why does this sound so scary? You're like, good luck.

I think we're scared because he told us lot of stories about bears and we're like, fuck this, we're not going in the summer. He was at the, oh no, I'm going to butcher this a little bit with details. He was at the Yukon's most deadliest bear attack. I think it happened to like a lakeside maybe. There's a name for it where like a few people died. He was there at that.

my god.

cannot remember, this is bad. Can I Google when we're

I mean, listen, I just take comfort in knowing that like, yes, it happens, but it is really rare.

Yes,

true, true.

You're not making me feel very good about this.

I can't find it. Yeah, he take out a few stories. Yeah. I'm sure it'll be fine.

Yeah, I mean you survived Vancouver Island a lot of bears there too, so

Yeah. Never seen one. Yeah. I Emma saw one on the trail a few weeks ago. yeah. yeah. Yeah. That's a problem though. That's big problem. Yeah. Yeah. People think that's like a, like a fun thing. It's not. They're actually quite terrifying, especially if they're hungry.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. The fear for me is like running into a bear that has cubs with her. I always tell people like, for the most part, like I have like encountered them in Ontario. For the most part, like they're afraid of you too. So if you just slowly back away, they're going to do the same. It's just like, if you surprise a mother, then you might have a problem on your hands. That's when you need to pull out the bear's fur.

Yes. And the guy at the airing being Yukon said, black bears are okay. I think you can usher them off. They're pretty scared of you unless they've got, you know, mom and the cubs. He said grizzly bears, not great. He said they like to play with you and toy with you a little bit. Brown bears just want to eat you. So they're the three he break down to gave and he didn't touch on polar bears, which I don't think are in.

No, they're more norse.

because they don't hibernate. Yeah. There you go. ⁓ that'd be fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, luckily I can't do any like really intense hiking because of my knee injury. So we'll be on busy trails, which is in our favor because the bears tend to avoid those. think we'll be okay.

which is to commemorate the Allies walking in and freeing the Dutch from Nazi occupation. So what happens is every year there's a walk, you have to qualify for it, you have to do a 50 mile walk in UK. And UK is the only country that takes cadets. So you have military there and UK cadets, which is an interesting experience because the cadets are kind of given their own little area because they can't really mingle with the military because they're doing a lot of stuff, know, drinking and partying and...

in between the walk, right? So that's my only experience. It was really hot when I went like low 40s and some people died on our walk, which is quite rare. it was an experience.

Yeah, I know people who have done it as well from Canada because for those who don't know, Canada liberated the Netherlands from World War II. And so there's like strong ties between Canada and the Netherlands and a lot of Canadian military members go over to do the walk. I know someone like a family friend who was in the military and he's gone every year for like 10 years straight to do the walk. And we went at

the beginning of May, which is around the time that the Netherlands was liberated, which was a really special time to go because there were tons of Canadians on our flight going over specifically for that, for Liberation Day in the Netherlands, because there are celebrations all over the Netherlands. There was a lot of love for Canada during those celebrations because, yeah, we were the ones who liberated them. It's a cute story because my Omanopa,

were both in the Netherlands during World War II and they remember being liberated by Canadian soldiers. So when they decided to leave the Netherlands post-war because things were dire there, the country was in recovery, they sought to go to Canada. And that's why I now was born here and am a Canadian citizen. So it's kind of like a nice little circular story, the ties that I have with the Netherlands through my Oman-Opa and through the liberation.

at your grandparents.

My mom's parents.

Today... or did they miss Holland? Would they ever go back to Netherlands or...?

They went back often, yeah. would say not to live. it's funny. Like, I know that they definitely missed the Netherlands. They went back often. They did like, like I, I feel I grew up in a pretty Dutch household because I think like they shared their culture with my mom and my mom handed that back down to me. But I do know that when they immigrated, they made like a

Live.

They made an intentional choice to become Canadian. Like they gave up their Dutch passports when they got their Canadian citizenship. I'll always remember like my Opa always had a rule. He had a shop that he ran. It was like menswear. He had the shop for 50 years and the family rule was no Dutch in the shop. Like we would never speak Dutch in the shop with people around. It was only at home in the household. And that was because he really believed in like being Canadian and not like...

making people feel like they were outsiders because they weren't speaking the language we were speaking. So I don't know that they ever like sought to go back to live. I think they were just so intentional about being Canadian that like that never crossed their mind. But it's funny because like now I want to go back and live in another.

I know. Which I think we're to get to later on. It's weird actually. was doing some research today on Ricky Gervais of all people, the comedian. Dad is Canadian, he's from Ontario, Franco-Ontarian. And he lived in UK because he served in the Second World War and was based over in Europe. But he stayed in UK, which is interesting because I'm like, why would you stay in UK when it's basically in ruins? You're not from there. Why don't you just go back to Canada?

nothing's been destroyed and but hey, he stayed anyway. So hence why Ricky Gervais is born in Reading. I was thinking, like why?

Interesting. Well,

I do think at the time, like my Omo and Ope came in the late fuse. they were in Canada during probably like the best time. Like they really were able to make a good life for themselves here, especially compared to what they would have been able to do in the Netherlands. Like now the economy of the Netherlands is pretty on par. But like at that time, like life was probably better in Canada for them.

And guess they did stay at least 10 years, right? After the war.

Yeah, they stayed. So they were there quite a while actually, now that I think about it after.

Yeah, so they did actually see the recovery and I guess you give it a chance and then.

They

did give it a shot. They gave it a shot.

Yeah. Okay. I want to know some facts about Netherlands and Holland. We'll have to kick off with the name because I keep saying both. So first question off the bat for me, football wise as Holland, traditionally. Yeah. But for the name, the difference between Holland and Netherlands, what are we saying? Do you know the reason why we say one or the other?

Holland is a term that refers to a specific region of the Netherlands that's part of what's called the Randstad, which is the most densely populated part of the Netherlands. It also refers to like what's called the low-lying country. So Holland is like North Holland and South Holland. Those are two provinces. And because it's sort of like the economic center of the Netherlands, I think people just started referring to it as Holland.

Right.

colloquially, but like technically the country is called the Netherlands. But like Dutch people themselves will say Holland. Yeah, like the thing is they're probably Dutch people that technically do live in Holland, like the province.

really?

Yeah. But Devlin sounds more inclusive of the other regions.

The Netherlands refers to the entire country, which is why I tried to say that versus Holland.

But I guess if you live in the Holland areas you would just say Holland. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah. But I feel like when I think about it, I've definitely met Dutch people abroad who refer to it as Holland. Watch out for it.

Okay. Yeah.

Should we go to Netherlands for the episode? Should we say Netherlands?

I

would say the Netherlands because like the travels that we're going to talk about, like I wasn't technically in Holland for most of those travels. And this is also a fun little fact. My Oma's side of the family is from Friesland, which is a province in the very north of the Netherlands. So it is technically the Netherlands, but Friesland has its own cultural identity, similar to how you would view like Quebec within the context of Canada.

So they speak their own language, they have their own flag. They do have cultural differences. So my Oma spoke Fries, but she also spoke Dutch. And they're a little bit separatist. There are some people in Friesland that would like to separate from the Netherlands. And Fries people are very proud of their Fries heritage and culture. We have family friends here who, like one of my mom's childhood friends who was Dutch, she married a man who was Fries.

and they met in the Netherlands, so they would come every summer and he would come to this like town that my parents live in that's north of Toronto and he would walk around literally in his clogs and he would refuse to speak English to people. If you spoke to him, he would just speak Fries to you and he would do it to my mom and she would always laugh her head off because she was like, you know I don't speak Fries, I speak Dutch and I know that you speak Dutch and you speak English, but why are you speaking to me in Fries?

Um, so that's just a little insight into how, um, yeah, not like nationalistic, but how proud like Fries people are of their heritage. And I just love telling people that cause like a lot of people I talked to have never heard of Friesland and it's a really like special part of the Netherlands. So it's worth mentioning.

Is there like a settlement there that people might have heard of? Is there like a big city or?

Leorardin? Have you heard of Leorardin? Have you heard of Chronin? Chronicin? Yes, I lived there for a time. Leorardin is like probably an hour from there. It's very close. Chronicin is like right on the border of Friesland.

in Friesland. Like it's right on the edge. Yeah. Yeah. I do know the football team. hence mine. Honestly, most of my Netherlands knowledge is going to be football team.

It's not in it, it's on the border.

my god. Well, you got me there because I don't know anything.

Okay. I got some facts actually that I drew from the internet. If they're right, great. If they're not, don't blame me. Um, but we know some of them, right? So Netherlands is the lowest lying country in Europe. So where I'm from in UK, in Norwich, we're the lowest lying county in UK. That's a bit of a connection there. And they are the sixth most densely populated in Europe. Only one national language in Dutch and it's officially closest to English out of all the languages.

routinely ranked in the top 10 happiest countries. It says the most physically active country in Europe. It's a bold claim. Yeah. ⁓ guess the bikes. Yeah. Over a thousand windmills and more bikes than people. The tallest nation in the world. Yeah. Okay. They invented gin.

Well, think about all the cycling. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kenever. We'll talk about it later. It's called Kenever.

I think that's all my facts actually.

Well, I'll tell you the thing about the tall thing because like I guess I'm tall like I'm probably 5'8". Like I'm the same height as Lucas, my husband, and he's always like everyone in your family is so tall like my brother is like over six feet. But when like I don't feel like tall or short here in Canada and I think it's because there's so much diversity here like just everyone's different heights.

Yeah, yeah.

But when we were in the Netherlands last month, we went to like a less touristy region. So we were often in spaces where like it was very clearly just like Dutch people all around us. And Lucas would stop all the time and just like be like this looking around and say to me, everyone is so tall. And it was so true because everyone around us would be like a head taller than us. You really do notice it.

I wonder why... We're in a gene.

Like I feel short in the Netherlands, which is funny because when I thought about it, like I had never really thought about it, but amongst my girlfriends, like I'm the tallest. So it was funny to like experience being short.

I just never thought that the Dutch would ever be that tool. Don't play basketball that much. I'm trying to equate why maybe people don't know that. Because this is not a said thing that much. Who cares, I suppose.

is a thing. And if you Google it, there's actually like, you can read about why Dutch people are so tall. It has to do with a mixture of like economic factors, like that led to people, I think it was like 100 or 200 years ago, like eating really well and then like their actual diet. There's a whole like slew of reasons. I can't remember them all, but that explain why Dutch people evolved to be tall.

I think I did read on the same website about the cuisine that the Dutch are the healthiest. And I thought that's very subjective, I suppose. I think, I don't know how you define a whole population as being the healthiest, but hey, that was on there. But I didn't include it in my list because I'm like, well, how'd you...

Interesting

because to be honest, I don't find the diet in the Netherlands like particularly healthy, but I do think their lifestyle is more healthy. Like Dutch people really are very active. Like you don't, you don't get in a car. Like people really do bike everywhere.

Yeah, tell us a bit about the culture. That was the next question really about like why you like it. Is it because it is an act of culture? Biking is number one, which I guess for the environment is great. You're biking around, not too many cars. I guess the country is built for that as well. So they've got proper infrastructure if you want to bike. Whereas like, guess technically here you can probably bike to work, but is it actually built for that? I'm not sure. Yeah, tell us a bit about the culture, why you love it. Like any favorite things about it that you just kind of miss and want to go back

I mean, I always have to caveat this. I think it's like different when you're visiting a country that you have a personal tie to. Because I remember the first time I went to the Netherlands, I was 16. And I remember feeling like, wow, this feels like home, kind of. But in a weird way, because like, I knew aspects of Dutch culture, I knew Dutch food, because my mom like would shop in the Dutch.

import store. There was a lot that I knew about it that was familiar to me. And so to go to that country and be surrounded by it, it felt like home in a way. And so I think because of that connection, I love it because it's nostalgic for me almost. It reminds me of my upbringing and my mom. so it's a special experience in that sense. There are a lot of aspects. This is the thing, it's hard to disentangle.

whether the cultural aspects that I love, I love them just because I grew up with them or because I genuinely love them because I am a cyclist. Like I've always loved biking everywhere I've ever lived. I don't drive. I don't have a license. I've always insisted on cycling, but I don't know if that's like because I have a Dutch mom. Like I think, I don't know.

I'm not a cyclist.

Yeah. But so that is something that I really love about the Netherlands. And when I lived there, like, I just loved that so much. And even on this last trip, I borrowed a bike from my cousin and was just biking everywhere. And I just, I just love it. So that's definitely a big part of it that I love, but it's also like the familiarity. I know the language pretty well. And so it feels like comfortable for me. I love Dutch food. People like, like to claim that the Dutch

don't have interesting food culture. They do make a few awesome dishes that I really love. ⁓ I just love their cities. There's so much beautiful history in the Netherlands. They have beautiful medieval historic cities. I think a lot of people really restrict themselves to Amsterdam and the Rijstad, that region. There's a few places that people typically go, but there's so much more beyond that that I don't like using the phrase underrated, but like,

really they are. Like there's places I've been in the Netherlands that people have never heard of that are just like so deserving of attention. So yeah, I would say that's what I love about it. I'm trying to think if there's anything else. I just

⁓

In my mind, I've got like, could on a balmy day, just walk down the river. There's always going to be some water about, I'd imagine in the Netherlands, in each city or town, I'd imagine. And you can just sit while you bike. You might bike along there. You stop off at a nice cafe. There's a nice view with a maybe medieval cathedral, church, and there's like cafes outside, like classic European stuff, right? Yeah. And you can just sit there and enjoy it. That to me sounds a little bit dreamy, I think.

It is dreamy, yeah. The canals are so beautiful. They're so beautiful and like, yeah, like good cafes. It is that typical like what we stereotype as being very European, like going to these open squares, like in Holland you call them marked. So you go to the square and like you sit at a little table outside and drink a coffee and coffee culture is big in the Netherlands as well, which is something I think you would appreciate about it.

Yeah. yeah, just like, I also just love how like interconnected it is. Like the train system is really good in the Netherlands. All the Dutch people will tell you it's not, like from the Canadian perspective, it's amazing. Like you can truly hop on a train and just go anywhere at any time of day. Like the trains are always running. Everything is connected. Yeah. It's just wonderful.

population do you find there like a happy population are they outgoing are they reserved like how do you find by city or

It's hard because I think I'm very acclimatized to the Dutch nature, which I have heard people describe as rude. This is a thing. People find that Dutch people are very, people call it the Dutch directness. There's not a lot of small talk or people don't beat around the bush like Canadians do. We're very passive aggressive and we'll definitely beat around the bush without saying what we actually mean. This is not a thing in Dutch culture. They also have like

the typical European service industry culture where it's not chatty like it is in North America. And I think people perceive that as rudeness sometimes, because I have heard from people that they don't find Dutch people very nice. I don't have this experience though, but I think it's because either I'm used to that or I'm often with family when I'm there. They don't behave that way with me.

I think every Dutch person I've met has been absolutely fine. Maybe there's a connection between, you mentioned earlier with Canada and Netherlands with the war. There is a connection with UK and Netherlands with the war. That's a big thing like Arnhem and all that sort of stuff. We tried to liberate early market, market garden, all that sort of stuff. So I think there is a genuine respect and connection between Dutch and English people.

It is true that you'll notice Dutch people when they hear that you're Canadian and it'll be the same for you when they hear that you're British. It's just a general positivity because these relationships exist. It's hard to say, I've never experienced being there as an American or another European, so who knows, but I do get that impression. The other thing too is I've noticed that the people who tell me they find Dutch people too direct or rude.

A lot of them have only been in like Amsterdam. And it's like, okay, let's be realistic. Like most of these very over-touristed European cities, like the people that live there are exhausted. So they just don't have the energy to be kind to every single tourist they interact with. I get it. So I do think like the vibe is different when you leave Amsterdam.

Of course.

Not happy.

Yeah

Okay. What about the food? You mentioned food earlier. Have you got any favorite dishes or you can describe some for us? Yeah. Or snacks?

Yeah.

My favorite is probably bitterballen, which is basically like, I would describe it as like the Dutch version of arancini, if you've had that. So it's a fried dough ball. And in the Netherlands, it's filled with like a creamy ragu, which is like a stew-like mixture of like beef or veal sometimes. And it's like sickened with beef broth and then seasoned. And so.

Yeah, it's like a fried little ball and when you open it up, it has that like stew inside. It's kind of hard to describe. There's also like vegetarian, like nowadays they have all types so you can get vegetarian bit of ball in these days as well. It's so good and it's often something that you're gonna have like, people will call it like a borlhapja, which is like a bar snack. So any bar that you go to will serve it, but you'll also see it in restaurants quite a lot. I also really love stampot, is something my mom made as I was growing up.

It's basically just like potato and kale mixed together with a lot of butter and then gravy. So simple, but very good. And there's different types. So you can get like different types of stampot. And then another thing like the Dutch are known for is panna kuchen. So like just Dutch pancakes, but they're made in the more like European style. So they're very like thin. They obviously don't use like the same syrup we have. The Dutch have like their own syrup, which I will say I don't really like.

because I'm used to Canadian maple syrup. Also, the interesting thing about pancakes in the Netherlands is that they're often eaten for dinner, not for breakfast. Yeah. And there'll be pancake houses, they call them. So if you're ever there, you'll want to go have dinner at a panna kuchen house or sometimes ships. In Amsterdam, there's a panna kuchen ship. So you can go and eat pancakes on a ship.

Okay. Yeah. Makes sense with the water there, suppose. Yeah.

and I'll also tell you about Hanover, which you mentioned, which is essentially like a Dutch gin. Yeah, so it's actually like traditionally Dutch and Belgian, and it has like a juniper flavor to it. Like it's a juniper spirit, I guess. And they've been making it in the Netherlands since the 16th century, I believe. And they call it like the precursor to gin. Like it doesn't taste exactly.

Hmm.

like gin, but it is very similar. And actually gin cocktails are very popular in the Netherlands as well. I've noticed that Dutch people really, they really like gin in general.

can tell you.

Yeah,

like, I don't know. It's so hard for me to generalize this stuff because I have my Dutch family, right? I know what their habits are, but I can't speak for all Dutch people. I will say when I was there as a student in Groningen, I did notice the partying was heavy. People were partying Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, ⁓ until six in the morning.

Yeah, Friday's off. Yeah.

So

Declumb.

Okay. Great word. Yeah. words. Okay. As we're, we're in Delft and that's next. that's first on your trip. Can you tell the listeners where that is? And maybe if you know what it's known for, why did you go?

Yeah, well, it's South Holland, so it is technically Holland, and it's in the western part of the Netherlands. It's located between the Hague, which most people know, and Rotterdam. So it is part of this Rennstadt region that I was talking about that's very densely populated. So Delft is quite easy to get to. It takes like 45 minutes from Schiphol Airport. Because we've been to the Netherlands several times, we knew that we weren't going to go to Amsterdam on this trip, so that's part of why we picked Delft.

I wanted to go somewhere I hadn't been to, and Delft is known as one of the most beautiful cities, historic cities in the Netherlands. So when I saw that it was just like one train ride from the airport and only 45 minutes, I was like, that's perfect. I will tell you, Delft is often treated as a day trip. A lot of people will day trip there from Amsterdam or from Rotterdam or from The Hague. And I think that it deserves more time. We spent

straight in.

three and a half days there and we could have spent longer. It's just such a lovely city. So I would actually say like, if I were to do it, I would plant myself in Delft and day trip to Rotterdam and The Hague.

Wow. Controversial. Controversial. I know. I like it. It's actually known for, I've got here 11 islands within the city and 80 bridges in the city center.

Rishal, I know.

Yeah, I believe that. It's full of canals. Full, full, of canals. The islands, like, it's interesting. I didn't really notice that, but because there's so many canals, like, I could have been on an island and not known it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing. That's incredible. You just build a city around these individual islands because it's like a lot of admin, right? You've got to build a bridge there. You've got to build a walkway over there. Yeah. It's a lot of admin to get to get going, right?

Well, a lot of the Netherlands is below sea level. That's why they call it the lowlands. like, they kind of had to, this is like kind of an interesting, like historical part of like Dutch society and Dutch culture is like, there's so much engagement with the sea, like as Dutch people, because the Dutch have always been fighting the sea, essentially, like they've had to learn. The Dutch are known as like great water engineers because they had to learn and develop like over the centuries ways to live.

in harmony with the water and to collaborate with it essentially. Actually, one of my family members worked in the shipping industry for years and so he knows and has told me a lot about like this long history of water management, especially in the south of the Netherlands. So that's why so many of the cities have so many canals because they need to put the water somewhere.

Yeah, makes sense. I guess that's where the connection we're on from is with Holland or South Holland maybe. Where it's mostly lowlands is that we are, we don't have the same problem, but we do. Some of it of the county is like quite low and we're fully aware, I suppose in our county that too much rise in sea level and then we're in trouble as well. And the cliff is eroding as well. So it's like there's all these things going on, which maybe has a connection with the Dutch people in terms of the same struggles.

Yeah, definitely.

And for Delft, I got here, he's got his own leaning tower of Pisa. Did you see that?

I didn't know it was called that.

That's what said on the article I was doing a research. I don't actually know what it's called.

Interesting, yeah.

I think it's the old church. There's three key churches in Delft. The new church, the old church, and then the third one, I can't remember its name. But I think it's the old church because I realize now I have a photo that I took of that tower from far back looking at it down a canal. And it definitely is tilted.

Okay. So where you just like talking about the city, very casual travel, just get the bikes out or walk. And that's kind what you're doing.

Very

walkable cities, so that's most of what we did. We did visit all of the churches. One of the churches, the New Church, is quite famous. It's called the New Church, but like it's not really that new. It's still like hundreds of years old. It's just like newer than the old church. These naming conventions always make me laugh. But the New Church is really famous because a lot of the royal family is buried there in a crypt below the church floor.

Yeah.

So it's a really interesting church to visit because you can learn about that history and why the Dutch family is there. It's where William of Orange is buried as well. He's a very famous historical figure for Dutch people.

UK

people as well. K-Men's The Royal Family.

in Dutch independence. And yeah, you can go up the tower as well of the new church, which is fun because you get like a great view of the city. ⁓ So yeah, we did that. We also, I mean, it's just such a gorgeous city. You do want to spend a lot of time just walking on foot and just taking it all in. ⁓ But the other very like essential thing to do there is to go learn about blue Delftware, ⁓ which the city is famous for. It's a type of Dutch pottery.

that's known for its blue and white hand-painted designs. And it's been traditionally made in Delft since the 17th century. Delft became the main production center of this cookware and pottery. So over the years, it's just maintained that connection. And yeah, it's very much a symbol of Dutch cultural heritage. see Delftware in most Dutch people's homes. I always can tell if someone has Dutch heritage because you'll often spot Delftware in their house. ⁓

Delft plate, like hanging on my wall. So yeah, there's a factory there, which is one of the original factories. You can go there and learn about like the history of the pottery and like the tradition of making it, how they make it, and then the current like modern tradition of Delftware. And then of course you can purchase some Delftware.

Of course. They're souvenirs, Yeah. Did get any? Did you buy any?

Yeah.

We did. We bought one thing. Here's what I'll tell you, like actual Delftware, like the hand painted is like very much out of most people's price range. So like we got the like mass produced Delftware. There's like two, three lines. There's like the cheap, cheap line, the mid range and the, the like luxury. went for the mid range.

Okay. And like, do you like use it or is it there for decoration?

No, no, it's decorative. Some people use it. Like some people, like my mom has like some of the like more mass produced cheaper like delftware that she uses like on a day to day basis. But like we bought a plate and the plate hangs on our wall. It's like, it's more a piece of art, I would say.

Okay, fair enough. Do you have any recommendations of anywhere to stay? Where did you stay in Delph?

We stayed in an Airbnb, which we don't often do, but we wanted to because we were there for a couple of days. We didn't want to eat out the whole time, especially with my food allergies. It's always like nice to have a kitchen. So we decided to stay in a small apartment, but we stayed in an awesome one that was like connected to the home of our hosts, which is something I try to do if I'm doing an Airbnb. So our hosts were a Dutch family from Delft.

and they were living right below us and we were in like this little attic apartment. And it was just so cute and so beautifully decorated, had tons of Delft ware and also Vermeer knockoff paintings. Cause Vermeer is from Delft. And yeah, it was in a great location. was just, it was a lovely, lovely stay. really loved it.

Um, before we move on randomly talking about, uh, your allergies for traveling, my partner has just been diagnosed with celiac. So that's going to change the game for you. don't know people know when you get tested for celiac, you have, is it the number, which is a threshold, it's like there's 12 basically. So when you get tested for your blood tests, uh, I was tested. I didn't actually know that until I checked my last year's results. I'm 0.5 out of 12.

Not getting any reaction to it at all. Um, which is interesting. I thought it'd be higher than that, but Emma's was more than 250. So the doctor's like, yeah, I think you probably do have it. Like we, we can do another test just to confirm it. And we're like, been eating all this bread and like for years. Uh, I think the last year, I'd say two, two years, maybe since we got back last year, like we need to start to notice it.

She felt unwell?

Yeah.

very conclusive. So that's going to be a big change because you can't casually have an evening now. Contamination is a problem.

Yeah, I would say, listen, the Dutch eat a lot of bread. Bread is definitely a big part of the diet. But generally, I find it's a good country for food restrictions. I have found that my allergy has been handled very well. I don't have an eye on gluten in the way that I do like my not allergies, but I would guess that you would be able to find lots of options. Yeah, I would say that like generally, and the nice thing too about the Netherlands is

in the Netherlands.

It's actually the country in Europe where the most English is spoken. Most Dutch people learn English in school, which makes communication a lot easier. So if you're in a restaurant, like you're not going to have trouble communicating, which always helps with food restrictions for sure. And their labeling is good. Like when you're reading labels for foods, like packaged foods, like it'll have a warning about gluten as well as like.

common allergens. But yeah, you should talk to Nina Clapperton, my friend, but she's also like very well known for her work in the SEO space. She's celiac and she avoids gluten. I actually don't know if she's celiac or just gluten intolerant, but she avoids gluten and she like has so much insight on traveling with having to avoid gluten.

Okay.

Oh, we should. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cause it's like literally brand new from two weeks ago. So we're kind of processing it a little bit. Cause we have to change at home, right? I did gluten free just for my, I don't know, I did a FODMAP because I wanted to work out what was giving me some stomach issues, which have kind of been good since I started that. And I actually thought gluten was a problem, but I actually don't think it is now. think I'm other stuff for me is a problem like garlic or whatever, but yeah, it's just going to be big change because you're not supposed to contaminate. You're supposed to like really keep it separate. So the toaster we've got, we should go to get a new toaster.

Like she got her own bread, her own toaster. That's going to be a separate area. So that sort of level of thinking. you think even at home, you're considering it, but imagine a Broadway, like you don't know what things are cooked in or next to you or the same fry. Like you just cannot.

It's similar to my allergy because it's the same with peanut. Like I am so severely allergic. There can't be any cross contamination, which means if someone uses a knife and like touches a peanut product and then like wipes that knife and uses it for my meal, even that could cause a reaction.

Does that cause you a bit of stress and anxiety?

my gosh, I'm like so anxious about eating when I travel. Like all the time, every time I, even here, like anytime I eat a meal in a restaurant, I'm putting the greatest degree of trust in the people preparing my food. Wow. It's just a reality you live with.

And for travelers, that's nightmare, it? Because that's even another level of thinking on your trip. Because all the things you might be worried about. Is the Netherlands known for vegetarian or vegan food? Just want to jump that question in there before, as we're talking about food. Would it be a struggle?

Yeah.

hard for me because I'm not vegan or vegetarian, I would like to be, but I have enough food restrictions. don't want to add more to my plate. So I don't notice it, but I would say from what I know, I think probably. Yeah. Like they do eat a lot of meat and cheese in the Netherlands. But when you go to restaurants, there's usually like a lot of options.

I'm thinking about it now and like I definitely saw like vegan and vegetarian options on restaurant menus. So, and like I was saying, I think there's like quite a strong like cultural understanding of like food restrictions in the Netherlands because like I did notice on menus like that they had allergen guides and gluten guides and like they're labeling things. And so I think that is a positive sign.

I'm just going to stop right there because if you're enjoying this episode, it would mean the world to me if you could rate and review the podcast. Give it five stars on your podcast app of choice. It really helps more travelers find the show and also promotes the show for free to more people. And if you would like to support me and the podcast, you can buy me a coffee for $5 at buymeacoffee.com. Every sip helps fuel more travel stories. The link is in the show notes. Let's get back to the show.

Okay. And next on your trip is one week in my Dutch is horrendous. Verkendam? Is that how say it? Verkendam? V's got to a V, right? Surely. Verkendam. Okay. And he some day trips. There's no way I'm trying to pronounce the first place. How do you even start with that?

Good, that's pretty good.

the verkendam.

I will tell you, I can't even pronounce it, but luckily Dutch people don't call it its real name. It's just called Den Bosch. If you say to a Dutch person, Den Bosch.

Yeah. Okay. So why were you based here? And where is this in the country as well? Yeah.

in the South.

The closest point of recognition for people would probably be Rotterdam. It's about 45 minutes or an hour from Rotterdam. It is right on the edge of Biesbosch National Park, which is basically like marshland in the Netherlands. It's a very famous national park in the country. ⁓ A lot of people go there for cycling and for bird watching. And the reason I

go there every time I'm in the Netherlands is because it is one of the places that my Oma grew up in. childhood home is still there. so whenever I'm there, I drive by and I go look at the house that my Oma once lived in. And we have a lot of family ties there as well. So I'm very close with, this is tough. These people are not technically related to me. One of them is, but like really far back.

Yeah.

that is friends with my parents, so they're my parents' age. I just grew up with them in my life. And I always thought of them as my aunt and uncle, but they technically are not. But I am so close with them, like they are family. So I just never know how to describe who these people are. They're very close family friends that I'm related to very far back. And yeah, my parents have been friends with them, like before I was born, they were friends with these people. And so they were...

part of my life growing up, they often came to visit us, we would go to visit them. And they live just outside of Erkendam. They live actually right on the edge of the national park. So they actually live in a way that is quite special in the Netherlands because they have a lot of space around them. Dutch people famously live in small houses and it's quite dense in most of the Netherlands, but this region is not so dense because there's so much wetlands around.

So they live on a house or in a house that's raised. It's on a polder, it's called, which is basically like a built up piece of land that is built up so that like the rising water levels like don't impact it. So polders are often farmland, but you'll also find like homes that are built on polders. So their house is on a polder that's connected to a dike. So yeah, they live there. They have like a beautiful home. And so I like to go and stay with them. So I just stayed with them for a week with Lucas. My parents also came.

And then, yeah, we just spend our time like they have several boats, including like a traditional Dutch boat. So we'll go sailing like through the marshland. And then we did lots of day trips in the car, of course, to like nearby places. But yeah, it's just like a really magical place. And these people are very, very important to me. I love them. They're like honorary parents almost. So just having the chance to spend time with them in their home is always very special.

Amazing.

Oh, just that lifestyle just reminds me of our home. Yeah. By the national park called the broads in Norfolk, where it's a manmade waterway system. think it was probably built three, four years ago. could be completely wrong. Yeah. Sorry. But the premise is you would drive like 10 minutes, 20 minutes from Norwich, a city which does have its few, waterways as well. And you go to probably Acre, which is like the start of the broads. It's like a little, little village town.

And just get a boat out and you just go and ride the boards. Just like weaves in and out of the county. Quite lowland as well, like just in and out. That whole thing you just said just kind of reminds me like that's what my people would do.

Yeah, aww. That's such a fun takeaway from this conversation. Like I didn't know that there were so many, yeah, like connections between that region of the UK and the Netherlands.

I

think there is. Yeah. Yeah. I think also we just have the same similar lifestyle. You mentioned about space, right? UK is quite condensed, as you probably would know. London is ridiculous and so many cities have so many people, but where I'm from is known jokingly in UK as probably the inbred place because it's so much space and so far from anywhere that it's just little towns, one small city in Norwich, but like everywhere else in the county is small, small village, small towns connected by a few roads.

but mostly like, especially waterways in north of the county towards the sea. And we just have a lot of CSR communities. It's just that sort of different lifestyle maybe compared to someone who's from like middle England who lives in the Cotswolds completely different. yeah, in a weird way, I guess I would probably feel a bit closer to your parents and their friends and the way they live in Holland or Netherlands compared to maybe someone who lives in like London or Birmingham, like these big cities, right?

Yeah. And it really is like kind of quintessential like Dutch life when you're like here because like they have bikes and so like Luke and I would like get on the bikes and go cycling down the dyke and then like come across a windmill because like windmills are everywhere. Yeah.

You some windmills in that end county yet?

Yeah, it's just similar stuff, isn't it? Yeah. Stop by for a pub, drink, get back on your bike.

Yeah.

I think like Berkendam is like a place that tourists go typically, but like if you're in a car or you can, wait, can you get there? It might be one of the few places that you can't get to by train actually. I think it might be the place you would have to go to is Dordrecht and then from Dordrecht you could take a bus there. yeah, it's a very small town, but if you're interested in like wildlife, especially birds.

Okay.

Going there and like going into the national park is definitely worth it. And you can rent a bike and just cycle around for sure.

And you did some day trips as well. You mentioned Dordrecht. Again, do know the football team. And then Bosch. I know the football team as well. And Gouda. Is that known for its cheese? There's my summary. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It is

known for cheese. Yeah. To be honest, like that's why we went. I had never been and I was like curious about the history of cheese in Chowda. Especially because I love that cheese. Like I grew up on it. So they do, I think it's twice a week. I'd have to double check what days of the week, but twice or three times a week, they do a cheese market in Chowda. And it is a bit of like, it's put on for the tourists.

It is a cool experience because they demonstrate what the cheese markets used to be like over 100 years ago and how people would bring the cheese in and display it and how they would barter for the cheese, barter the prices. There's a really specific way that this was done. So you see demonstrations of that. And then of course, if you want to have Dutch cheese, you're going to do it in Chowder.

And it is a really cute town. Like we really enjoyed just walking around and visiting some of the churches. There's always like beautiful churches to visit wherever you are in the Netherlands. Of course, Rouda has nice canals. So it's a beautiful town to walk around. Yeah.

Do you think like any town, if you were to get a map of the Netherlands and say, look, do know what, I'm going to risk going here, know nothing about it. They're going to have canals, aren't they? And they're going to have on the whole that sort of lifestyle, know, little canal, little boat, little bike and park.

Like, I know of a few that don't. Oh. But like, they're more modern towns. It depends, right? Yeah. It depends on the history of the area.

So like door-drect, is that the same sort of thing?

trying to think, do they, they must, I think they do have canals. Yeah, I think they do. But yeah, similar like Dordrecht is, to be honest, I haven't spent tons of time there. Like we just popped in for an afternoon just to like drink coffee and walk around, which is often what I do with this family. But yeah, I couldn't, to be honest, I couldn't tell you like what to do as a tourist in Dordrecht, because we always just go and like walk around. ⁓

around.

Is that the same for them boss as well? like again, a casual walk around, soak in the atmosphere.

Yes.

Den Bosch is really special. ⁓ There are like very special things to do there. The thing about Dordrecht is I've been there many times because it's very close to Berkendam, so I don't go there like with the tourist brain. Den Bosch we went to with the tourist brain because it is a very special city. It's one of the best preserved medieval city centers in the entire country. ⁓ wow. So you can see old ramparts and you can see old city walls that are still visible.

There's also lot of fortifications left over there and like really beautiful walking routes that you can do like all around the fortifications. And it's especially famous for its network of canals because it has special canals. They run under the city. So they go through the city, but also under. So often like inside buildings, there will be canals running below them. So when you're walking like around Den Bosch, like you'll look down and

There's a boat and a canal below you and you don't even realize it.

can't get my head around it. Hang on a minute. it almost sounds a bit like Venice. You just kind of built on the water.

Yeah, but it's, it's in Den Bosch, are below, like often you don't even see them because streets are built above them. you do see them sometimes, but a lot of them are hidden. And the reason it's like this is because merchants used this system to deliver goods to the city.

Like contraband goods, you mean?

No, no, no, no. Just as like a way to transport things. I mean, a lot of the Netherlands did this, like especially in medieval times, but the city, like it was the easiest way to transport goods to shops. And so these like canals would run underground and then like you would drop off the goods like below street level and then they would like enter directly into the shop. And then famously, like it was also the sewage system for the city and

I can't remember what year, but at a certain point, like the city was like, this is not okay. It smells really bad. Right. And then they, uh, they changed the system and now it's more for the tourists. So you can, yeah, you can take a boat around. Yeah. Oh wow. So you get in the boat and it just like blows your mind. Like I had walked around Den Bosch and I knew that there were canals there, but like it wasn't until I got into this boat that I realized how many there were and like,

Yeah. Okay.

you're just like in the dark a lot of the time. Like all the boats have a flashlight on the front because when you are going like under the buildings, it's like pitch dark down there.

Wow, that's blow my mind a little bit,

Yeah, it's such a cool city. They also have their own like pastry that you can eat. it's like a massive cream filled pastry that's like kind of like, I would almost liken it to what's the donut we eat here from Tim Hortons. I can't eat it because of my allergies. It's like chocolate with like creamy filling inside. It's sort of like a Boston cream, like the chocolate part of this pastry is hardened.

Boston Cream.

Okay.

Anyways, you can get this all over the city.

Ah, interesting. Talk about pastry, right? I want to call up my friends here because it's quite funny. So my friends, Chris and Sarah, they have a YouTube channel and they're camping around UK at the moment, which is great because I get to see them check out my country. They said, look, we're nervous about putting this video out by England, right? I was like, right. Okay. They said, because English people can be a bit basically dicks about certain things you get wrong. I was like, right. Okay. But they said the one thing we got wrong.

that we didn't expect to get wrong and cause those out range was a pastry. I was like, what do you mean? goes, well, we described a sausage roll as meat between bread. I was like, no, no, no, no, it's not bread. They go, yeah, we know that now. All the comments are like, it's puff pastry, it's pastry, it's pastry, it's pastry. I'm like, yeah, I'm surprised you got that wrong in your YouTube video. Like that's quite a big thing in the UK to get a sausage roll. Yeah. So unfortunately, I don't like people commenting bad things on videos, but the comment section I write, it's a pastry. It's not meat between bread.

Honestly, similarly, I'm afraid that like a Dutch person will listen to this episode and be like, she got this wrong, she got this wrong. Like, who knows? Anyways, this pastry is called a Bosch-a-Ball. I can't pronounce it, but you'll, you just ask for the famous pastry if you're in Den Bosch and they'll know what you mean.

Yeah. So pastry is well, UK for sausage rolls is puff pastry.

Puff pastry. Nice.

That goes hand to hand with being a student city.

Yeah. What's your experience in new track?

I loved it. It was my second time there. I went this time because another family member lives there, someone I'm really close with, so she and her husband lived there. So I wanted to spend some time with them. So I went there basically for a week as well to just fit in time with them when they weren't working. And in the meantime, do my own thing and just like wander around. So yeah, I...

did go up the Dom Tower. was very cool. But this is also one of the world's leading cycling cities. So like all of the Netherlands loves to cycle, but like Utrecht is like, they love to cycle. Like they're almost anti-car there. Like a lot of places you go in that city, like you do not see cars. Like it's just cycling. So I was lucky because my cousin, she's not technically my cousin. just call her that. Again, this is just like.

We're related, I don't know how. So she's just my cousin. She gave me her like backup bike, which was awesome. I will say though, it's very easy to rent bikes. In the Netherlands, there's like stations where you can just like tap your credit card and take a bike for the day. ⁓ wow. Great. So even if you don't have a random cousin, you can get your hands on a bike while in the Netherlands.

So yeah, she lent me her bike. So I spent a lot of time just like cycling around, taking the city in. One of my favorite things that I did was go to the Spielklok Museum, which is a museum that's dedicated to self-playing instruments. So something that the Netherlands, you'll notice there is that you'll see on the street often, street organs, and these are used for busking.

So because the Netherlands was flat, it was easier for people to move these around from village to village. So they really took off there. So this museum goes through the whole history of these instruments, but they also present giant dance hall organs from these tiny music boxes. And if you go at the right time,

You can join a free tour where one of the staff brings you around and they actually demonstrate the use of these instruments. It was just so cool. Like I've never been to a museum like this and I learned a lot and the instruments were like so cool. So yeah, I definitely recommend that. And then the other thing about Utrecht that I think makes it really special is its canals. Of course. But they have special canals that only exist in Utrecht. They don't exist anywhere else in the world.

Yeah.

This is a two level canal system. there's like, it's hard to explain. There's like street level. Then there's a level below where there's like another platform that's on par with the water, if that makes sense. And then on the level below street level, there's typically a wharf cellar, they call it. So you can enter a cellar that is basically below the street.

just can't get my head around how we're shifting water to different levels.

It's Dutch engineering. ⁓

I know

I just cannot get my head around it. For me it's like water is just there, exists, there. But the fact you can have different levels where you have one bit of water and a break.

Well, you know how we have locks, lock systems. They use lock systems in Holland quite a lot. So yeah, and they have locks like in Utrecht that you'll see and they're on the outskirts of the city because that controls the water levels in the city, right? So yeah, and so similar to Den Bosch, these canals were designed this way to make life easier on merchants. So merchants would like use these canals, stop somewhere, deliver goods.

Got it. Yeah.

to the wharf cellar and the wharf cellar would connect, like you go deep into the cellar and it connects to a building that is above street level. So it was just an easy way to deliver things without interrupting like the life on street.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so nowadays those wharf cellars, like it's not used anymore for these purposes, but a lot of them have been converted into sometimes people's homes, but tons of them are converted into restaurants as well as bars. So there's this whole like culture of going down to like the second canal level to eat. It's just really, it's a really cool vibe. yeah. So like Lucas and I would go down and like have a glass of wine, like at water level, like.

in a wharf cellar. Yeah, it's really beautiful.

All I keep thinking about is Venice, right? Because I keep thinking Venice is so over-visited, it's based on water. I'm like, well, is this a great alternative? Probably Utrecht's not going to like this, but is it a great alternative maybe to see somewhere like it? Where we all know Venice has got its problems. Obviously this weekend Bezos has shipped in a load of random people to go to his wedding. People aren't happy about that, but if you just don't want to contribute to the Venetian's problems with tourism, can you go to somewhere like Utrecht and kind of see?

Same same? Is that a fair comment or not?

I will tell you, there is a town, I don't know if it's a city, a town in the Netherlands that is called the Venice of the Netherlands. It's called Geethoorn. It's famous for its canals. I don't know, you know this, I lived in Venice at one point. And to me, it's quite different. Like the canal culture is very similar, but the aesthetic is very different in my mind. And so I think like, yes, would,

do well like the urge to experience like canal life a little bit, but I do think they're different. Sorry, that's not a very good answer. I love Venice and I would like people to experience Venice. Just go in the winter. Go in the winter.

Say it.

Yeah, I agree. We went in February, I think, or February or March.

Yeah, it's so much quieter and they need the tourism resources at that time because obviously over-touristed places like this, they get a huge influx of funds during peak season, but then in the off season, businesses suffer. So if you want to avoid contributing to over-tourism, definitely going in the winter is the best time to visit Venice.

guess the biggest difference I can maybe think of my mind is Venice has had to deal with living on water, whereas it feels like the Netherlands, a sort of living

They're trying to keep the water out.

Yeah, the full tide of the water out. That's different. Yeah. So you've got like different like engineering and these like low level canals. is ridiculous, but I guess that's necessary to maybe not end up like Venice, suppose. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Wow. A lot of canal chat. I think people are listening, right? I want to mention a place. I don't know if you've been, but if people are thinking of Netherlands, like I would, you think tulips and you think windmills.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you think like maybe bike along a path and seeing a windmill in the distance. There is a place you can see like loads of windmills, right? think I've got that again, my Dutch is going be horrendous here. The Zans, Shans and Kinderdijk. Is that the place to see the windmills? Have you been there or have you got any recommendations for like seeing that classic view of working old windmills?

Yeah, the Kinderdijk is amazing. Like, it is very touristy. It's probably one the most touristy locations you can go to in the Netherlands, but it is for a reason. It's a UNESCO World Heritage Site. There's 19 windmills there that are like, some of them are like 200 years old and even older. A lot of them are still functioning. Some of them people live in. People do live in windmills in the Netherlands. And so, yeah, it's a really magical place.

I will tell you that you can go at any time of day. You don't need to pay. The only thing you pay for, I believe, is the museum. The museum is worth going to. So what I tell people is it's close to Rotterdam, so most people will visit out of Rotterdam. And Kinderdijk is actually the name of the town. So the town is Kinderdijk, and they call the UNESCO World Heritage Site that just because of its proximity. But you are technically going to the town of Kinderdijk. Yeah. ⁓

If you go during the day, can go to the museum, but it will be crowded. So I usually tell people like, just stop by during the day and go to the museum, but then come back in the evening. The evening is so quiet. All the tour buses from Amsterdam are gone. Yeah. Yeah. And truly like you see Dutch people there walking their dogs, going for an evening cycle. I went on this last trip one evening with Atan. ⁓

at an Ingrid like my family members and it was just magical. went at like eight o'clock. There was barely anyone there. The evening light was so beautiful. ⁓ And I knew it was special because like even, even my Dutch family members were taking pictures. I was like, it's not just me, the tourists. Yeah. I do think the Kinderdijk is really worth, worth visiting. Yeah.

That's amazing.

Okay. What about the classic tulips? Have you seen those in the fields? Have you... Is that a Stachyderic thing you see in the countryside?

Yeah, you don't need to seek it out. It's kind of like, you know how like people say in Japan, don't, people go to Japan during cherry blossom season thinking they're gonna need to seek them out, but really you're going to see them everywhere. It's the same with the tulips, like you will see them as long as you get out of the cities. If you drive anywhere, you'll come across fields, but it's a very like specific window of time, similar to cherry blossoms, where you'll spot them. So I didn't see them on this trip because they tend to be more in April, but I have seen them on a previous trip.

And it's pretty amazing. Yeah. There are specific places you can go to see them, which I think like is great if you like need to stick to an itinerary, but you can definitely just drive around and you'll come across fields of them.

Okay.

Listen, I do love Amsterdam. Like it really is an amazing city. And they're, especially like if you're into art, the museums there are wonderful. I do think going to the Anne Frank House, it's a really important experience. I've done it twice and both times it was extremely impactful. It's just a very busy city these days with tourists. I would say like try to go in the off season. And I would also tell people like, try to get outside of the center, the city center. Got it.

Going to Amsterdam West, Amsterdam East, Amsterdam North, those neighborhoods are a very different vibe, a lot quieter, and I think they deserve a wander. So yeah, just try to spread out if you spend time in Amsterdam.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've never been. So that is on the list. I've got here things not to do in the Netherlands. Is there some hot tips where people should not be doing certain things?

Well,

my first tip obviously is don't just visit Amsterdam. Like, I do think, like, especially if it's someone's first time in the Netherlands, I don't think, like, you should necessarily skip it, but just be intentional about how you spend time there and try to mix in other places, like some of the places we've talked about today. You could also go north to Friesland or to Groningen. I also always tell people just be hyper aware of your surroundings at all times because this is such a cycling culture.

The bikes truly are everywhere and bikes have right of way over cars and also over pedestrians. Right. So you really do have a responsibility to be aware of your surroundings. Like never step out onto street without checking. Cause I guarantee you there are bikes coming and they will not be happy with you. Right. If you step in front of them. Yeah. And then I would say like, don't skip renting a bike. I think like, this is just the most quintessentially Dutch way to get around. So.

It's

flat, right?

Yeah. easy. Like, listen, Amsterdam, little scary. I've done it. Very intense cycling there. But if you get outside of the city, like in Delft, you could easily cycle. Utrecht, I found, was fine. So yeah, just go somewhere a bit quieter. Pack for the weather. It is a very windy, sometimes rainy country. I got really lucky and had great, beautiful, sunny weather. I like came prepared with my rain jacket. Like I was so prepared for rain, but

Regardless, I hope you get lucky with sun, but you might not, so it's good to be prepared. Other than that, just like the classic things, like learn some Dutch phrases. People will appreciate it. Don't rush through your trip. Like try to really slow down and take things in and learn things. And don't skip Dutch food. I know it doesn't have a good reputation, but you really should eat some Stampot, eat some Fitterballen. Like try some things. Here.

Okay.

You need to eat, what's it called? One sec. Sweet. should know this. Okay. Do not skip eating a stroopwafel and make sure that you get it from a street vendor where they're making it fresh. You can get stroopwafel like anywhere, like in all the shops, like you'll find it in bags and it's like a very typical thing to eat, like when you're visiting the Netherlands.

save your suite.

But getting it fresh is like a superior experience. So there are vendors on the street, like street food vendors that just make it right in front of you. And it's so good. So make sure you do that.

Okay, that's a great tip. What about, I've got some throwaway travel things that people might want to know about. Let's go budget. Do you find the Netherlands quite reasonable compared to Europe or is it mid range would you say? Is it higher end?

would say it's expensive, yeah. I would say it's similar to like Germany, the UK maybe, yeah. ⁓ It's hard because I'm with family a lot of the time, like I'm not paying for accommodation, but yeah, I think it's expensive. I will say though, outside of Amsterdam, things get more affordable.

Yeah.

Okay. What's the average price for like, if you're going to sit at cafe on a canal for a coffee, how much would that be?

And depends on the type of coffee you get, but like three to five euro.

Um, what about accommodation? I've got here, you obviously said Airbnb, you should say with family members, guess mid range local hotels are great as well. I guess they probably do have the classic chains if you want to get a shitty hotel, but yeah, I guess you want to go independent, local, mid range is good, right? Or budget, but like in that ballpark.

There are hostels. You can stay in hostels and a lot of them are locally owned. So that's an option too. But yeah, especially outside of the cities, you'll find really awesome small hotels and stuff. And even Airbnbs, as long as you do your vetting and search, you'll find Airbnbs that are definitely locally owned. Often they're attached to the main living space of your house. So those are also a good option.

That's good. Yeah.

Do they have bed and

I don't know, like I haven't stayed in one, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, one of the two. Okay. You mentioned language, learn a few phrases. think Dutch is fairly... No, it's not easy. I think some of the pronunciations are quite hard. Whereas if I was learning German, think I find that easier than Dutch.

That's what Lucas says, like he finds German easier. It's because in Dutch it's the h sound. That's hard. Yeah.

But learning a few phrases never, never hurts, it? Okay. And you mentioned also with people speak English, that's right. Every Dutch person I've met speaks great English. Public transports quickly. You probably will fly into Amsterdam. I'd imagine if you're flying internationally, I guess there's trains all around the country from there, right? So trains are good. You mentioned bikes. Probably don't rent a car. Is that worth it or not? Or would you go like, but buses are decent as well.

traveled by bus, I know they exist. The thing is, because the train network is so good, you really are probably mostly just going to be doing trains, bikes, and walking. I know my parents in the past have rented cars, but they only do it when they're going to areas like Friesland, for example, where the train network isn't as strong. The further away from Amsterdam you go, like the less infrastructure there will be. All that said, like rural in the Netherlands isn't the same as like rural in Canada.

There's usually some form of transport, so I think once you get out beyond the train networks, you could probably still get around by bus. So I don't know, you could rent a car depending. I think it just boils down to like how you want to go about your trip.

Okay. And any final comments on the Netherlands? Are you, you interested in going to Suwaname in South America, Dutch colony back in the day?

Yeah, you know, I've actually never been to a country that the Dutch did a lot of colonizing. Yeah, they did, There's lots of places I could go where that colonial history exists. Yeah, to be honest, I've thought most about going to Indonesia, mainly because my Oman Opa unfortunately were colonizers. They spent some time in Indonesia. So growing up, they would tell me about like

the year that they spent living there and they had a lot of memories of that, which has always made me curious to go there. But yeah, I think like going to any of those places would be interesting for me. There's a few in the Caribbean as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. South Africa, Namibia. The were all up in colonizing people. They were.

Yeah, Aruba? St. Martin?

Do know what? I'm going put this out there. Is this going to be controversial? I think they get away with it little bit. I think ⁓ UK obviously gets a lot of rap for it. The French do as well. Belgium because of the Congo. But I think the Dutch sort of goes under the radar a little bit, but actually they're everywhere. had, was in New York called New Amsterdam back in the day. They had Tsunami back in South America. East India company? No, sorry. East, what's it called? Indonesia basically.

They do. They do.

I don't know what the name was the East Dutch company or whatever it's called. I do think they slightly get away with it. Is that a fair comment?

I think that's fair. And I have, I mean, this is a discussion for another time. I have thoughts and feelings about like the way that this history is taught in the Netherlands. I do think it's changing. So like I studied there for a little bit. And so I had a lot of conversations with Dutch, like fellow Dutch students about like this colonial history. And I just.

When I lived there, I walked away feeling like Canadians were in a much more progressive place with grappling with our colonial history than the Dutch were. My observation was that Dutch people are very protective of their Dutch culture and fear that accepting this colonial history is a bad mark on their culture, which I mean, arguably it is, for any country. ⁓

Hmm.

So it's been over 10 years, things do change. I do, I know that it's like top of mind in the Netherlands. Yeah. And they're having conversations about things like, like I know that they're similar to how we discuss like the statues that we have erected and the names of places. I know that that conversation is becoming much more prevalent in the Netherlands. And so I think we can expect to see more progress around and reparations around those things in the coming years.

Interesting. Yeah, I think arguably they kicked off the slave trade, didn't they? Were they the first ones to start it? That could be wrong.

This would be an interesting conversation. if you ever run it, listen, I can only give my perspective as like someone who has Dutch family and has spent like a decent amount of time there, it would be interesting to ask a Dutch person their thoughts on it. Yeah.

Okay. Another conversation, another day. Let's finish the episode, a dip into Curious Tourism, peanut blogs. It's tough time blogging right now, isn't it?

Yeah, it's rough out here.

How's Google treating it?

Not great, but we're trekking through it, you know? I still, I love to, I became a creator because I wanted to write blogs, so I will continue to write blogs. Even if my audience is smaller, it doesn't matter, I'm gonna write them.

Okay, and how's the podcast going?

It's going well, I think. Yeah.

Yeah, one a month a minute,

Yes, but we are actually bumping up to two a month, which you and I have had some back and forth about. But yeah, I think that starts this month, July. Yeah, so we're doing sort of like a shortcuts episode, which is just my producer and I, Katie, talking about like travel trends and then our regular episode with a guest at the end of every month. And so yeah, I think that'll be nice. I think it'll be nice to be...

lovely.

putting a little more energy towards it because we used to publish once a month and that was feeling a little light, I guess. yeah.

Yeah, I am flying to Yukon tomorrow, which is exciting. Haven't been before, so it'll be my first time. It'll be my first time in a territory actually of Canada. And it'll be the most Norse that I've ever been in Canada. So I'm very excited for that. So we leave tomorrow. We'll be there for eight, nine days or so. Yeah.

And I'm working a little bit with the tourism board there. So they're setting us up to do some interesting experiences, which I'm really excited to share with my audience. So that'll be cool. And then aside from that, we are currently debating what to do in the fall. I think I told you already, the debate is between BC and Sicily, very different places.

Right, that is sane, wasn't it?

So to be decided. And then aside from that, I know, I know. And then in between that, we're just doing like a lot of local travel. just stuff around Ontario.

Okay, interesting. Yeah. My, my full travels is up for debate as well. I'm thinking Australia, maybe Bhutan. Ooh. Tick off the list for once and for all. I need Bangkok in my life. So I said to Emma, I'm going to Bangkok for long weekend. And from there you can fly to Paro in Bhutan.

You're dead.

Yeah, I've looked into it.

Yeah. So I think I might do five to seven days depending on budget. It is expensive. But it is all when I'm done, right? You pay your fee, you go and do it. yeah. And I might chuck in a bit of cricket to finish the trip with. ⁓

expensive.

Nice. That's You're going to Bangkok. Lucas wants to go there because he's very into Muay Thai. Like he does Muay Thai two, three times a week. And he's always wanted to do Muay Thai in Thailand. And so he's thinking about going solo to Bangkok for a week or two, just to like do Muay Thai for two weeks.

as a much more experienced traveler and do the same thing. I want to go into the palace, they'll come in Buddha. I want to go to the markets. I want to do the boat on the water, the transit boat and just kind of redo it, I think.

didn't experience it and I remember thinking I didn't like it. Later, like a couple years later, I was like, well, I didn't really like experience it. So I can't really have an opinion on whether I like Bangkok or not. Like what did I do there? Barely anything. And so I actually went back last November and I was there for two weeks. I just planted there. I was there for a work trip and I just like had an amazing experience, like so much better. I loved it so much. It's such a great city.

And it is like, it is very, it's an intense city. So I feel like you do need to spend time there to like really settle into it. Yeah.

absolutely loved the city. The problem is I was there for a week, so I loved it because we didn't want to move, but we had to get a move on to Cambodia. But half that week was in Kho San Road. unfortunately, that's a sick experience when you're younger, you are partying all night and the day is recovery pretty much. And then you do it again. So I kind of wasted half that week, feel like. Met some great people, don't get me wrong. There's some questionable stuff like a Edifant Sanctuary and Ping Pong Show, not proud of that, all that sort of stuff.

Yeah

But I just need to go back and be a normal experience, respectful tourist.

If you go, let me know because I've been there so recently, have lots of recommendations to share.

I know what I saw, like, probably a load of stuff I just didn't even know existed. Yeah, I need those recommendations again.

Yeah, I went to like a lot of temples that were outside of like the city center that were just incredible. Also, like my favorite thing about this was I flew from Canada, so I was very jet-lagged. But the nice thing about it is the way the jet-lag works has you like usually waking up very early in the morning. Yes. So basically the whole time I was there, I was waking up at like 5, 6 a.m. and that was the best time to go out.

So I would just like wake up, eat something, go down, call a motor taxi. We would zip across the city because the traffic is horrible in Bangkok. So going at like six in the morning, the temples were quiet, like no one was there, no traffic. It wasn't rip-roaring hot yet. Like, it's in your favor if you go from Vancouver to Bangkok because you'll have the right kind of jet lag. And then every night I was asleep by like 9 p.m. in this one.

Yeah,

dream. I'll take that. Yeah, it's direct from here as well in certain parts of the year. Yeah. Yeah, not cheap to fly, but direct. that's something, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's kind of eating away at me. I just need a bit of Bangkok or Thailand in my life. I've been there for ages now. 16, is it? Yeah. Is that right? My facts today have been horrendous.

Nice.

How hours is the flight from Vancouver? 16 straight ⁓

I actually think I transferred in Vancouver when I flew it in November. I think it was ten.

flight duration direct 16 hours 22 minutes. It connected from your basic travel the whole day.

Wow, I can't believe I did that.

⁓ yeah. I remember I flew coming home. flew Bangkok, Vancouver, had a two hour layover in Vancouver and then had to fly five, six hours back to Toronto. It was brutal.

in 24 hours.

⁓

That's horrendous. That's horrible. The one place that Vancouver flies to. can't fly anywhere here, cheap or anywhere, but you can go to Bangkok, Hawaii or Mexico City.

Japan!

Can't you fly to Tokyo? yeah, Tokyo. you do Tokyo Direct.

True. And Hong Kong, to be fair. Yeah, it's not bad. It's just so

Yeah, a great option.

Listen, this is my blocker. Every year, inevitably, Luke and I are like, should we move to the West Coast? we're always just like, no. Because Toronto is just, for some places, like for getting to Asia, Toronto is really hard. But for most other places, it's a lot better. And we have so many options for flying.

Oh, we're talking about moving to the East coast. How do you fax? Cause that's like direct to London, five and a half hours or six and you're straight into it. And the time difference works well. You can fly during the day cause I can't sleep at night. the problem for here is every time I fly long haul is genuinely in the evening at night and I can't sleep. So I'm out.

I know I'm the same. Yeah. I know it's a problem for me too. Literally like I flew to Bangkok and I was awake the entire time. The entire time. It doesn't matter how tired I am. Like my body refuses to sleep on a plane. It just refuses. It's horrible.

Yeah. ⁓

Maybe the only way is business class.

I think that's what it is. and I, we're just, luxury travelers that the world has not rewarded yet with upgrades.

Maybe if I slept down, you know, nice seat or turns into a bed, maybe that will help.

Yeah. No, I actually think that is it though. Like I have to be lying flat. Like otherwise I can't sleep because I also don't sleep in cars or buses. Like I just can't. Like actually when I was traveling in Southeast Asia, I loved it because we would take night buses and like people don't care what you do there. Like they do here. So once the bus was going, I would just get in the aisle and sleep on the floor and people would just step over me.

I think that's classic experience isn't it?

But

one time I noticed like a Thai guy doing it and I was like, well, if he's doing it, like I'm gonna do that. And I would just always, I would just sleep on the floor of the bus. It was great.

That's what locals do on the bus out there. They just get on the floor. Sometimes when you go across the border, they nip your seat. Experienced.

Yeah, and it worked.

Yeah.

You just stay on the floor then.

We went just down to the beach, only five minute walk from our place, just to chill out. I said, I can't sit on this floor very long, 10 minutes. I just can't lay on the floor. But the biggest problem is business class flights are expensive. So I'm trying to work out a way long haul, how am going to fund this new change? And it's not easy.

That's so funny, I can't.

This is the struggle of being Canadian is like you look at Americans and they have like credit card perks like that are just so superior to us. Like there's no travel hacking that I have been able to figure out myself that is getting me into business class. So I just got to save a lot of points, I guess. The problem is I always end up spending the points. So yeah, anyways, one day, one day.

No.

about it. Yeah. It's too easy.

day this time next year. Maybe not. Yeah, we'll see. Well, thanks Erin for coming on. It's been a great chat. It's a Neverland chat. The odd travel here and there. So I'll be keeping an on your travels the rest of the year. Looking forward to seeing them. And we'll reconnect hopefully on another episode. Could be about any country, could be anything, could be regular thing. We're in talks with that as well. So yeah, let's keep an on that and thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thanks for tuning in to the podcast episode today.

Thanks for having me.

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